Andrew Gray Podcast
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Andrew Gray Podcast
Why Being A Father Is The Most Important Job In The World
How has toxic masculinity transformed the role of fatherhood, and what can we do to reclaim the true essence of masculinity? Join us in this episode as we confront the alarming issue of fatherlessness, a crisis with deep societal and generational roots. We'll share personal stories that highlight the immense pressure men face to be ideal fathers and role models while contending with their own upbringing and societal norms. By exploring these challenges, we set the stage for a heartfelt discussion on the responsibilities and pressures that fathers navigate today, with insights from those who have walked this path.
Discover the importance of intentional connection and engagement in fatherhood as we recount our own experiences of adapting to our children's interests and being present in their lives. Learn how playing to our strengths as parents and supporting each other in these roles can leave a lasting impact on our children. Through candid reflections, we reveal how the time spent with our children is far more significant than the time spent working, and we offer wisdom on striving for a balanced and meaningful relationship with our kids.
As our children transition from adolescence to adulthood, maintaining a strong presence and connection becomes critical. We delve into personal experiences of navigating these challenging years, underscoring the importance of instilling values and ensuring a smooth transition to adulthood while preserving relationships. The episode also touches on the role of mentorship and the necessity for lifelong guidance and wisdom. Finally, we encourage continued engagement and conversation, reminding listeners of the enduring need for father figures and the value of shared learning across all stages of life.
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Well, I want to talk for a moment or two about a big subject, but it's a really important subject. I want to talk about fatherlessness and I'm not specifically or necessarily talking about the idea of biological fatherlessness only, although that is its own very real issue. But I want to start, maybe at a high level, and we're perhaps going to come straight to the floor with question and comment with this subject before we have our own input and so forth. But I think when I say the word fatherlessness, I'm talking about this idea that societally and generationally we are suffering badly from a collective fatherlessness. There is definitely a challenge around biological fatherlessness. That way, way too many people have an experience of an absent father or a violent father or an abusive father or whatever. There's too many of those stories, without a shadow of a doubt, and we all lose in the community as a result of that. But I think across the board. You know we've got government legislation that is intoxicated with trying to legislate the role of the father and the role of the man out of society. There is pressure against men being what I would call real men You've probably heard this phrase bandied about toxic masculinity and I don't like the phrase because I think what we should be talking about is we should be talking about the fact that that word, masculinity, has actually been hijacked and attached to the word toxic, as if somehow every single one of us was walking around with this latent potential to destroy the world.
Speaker 1:I don't believe that at all. I think a better phrase would be toxic humanity all I think a better phrase would be toxic humanity. And sadly, sometimes those toxic humans are men. But I want to recover and redeem the word masculinity, because in its original translation version, masculinity is a good thing, because it means to protect, to provide, to empower others, to serve our families and our communities. I don't like the bonding of those two words toxicity and masculinity. We need to do something about that.
Speaker 1:But when we talk about fatherlessness, we're talking about generations. You raised the point earlier around this thing that are we really doing better, generation to generation? And so I wanted to bring that up now around fatherlessness, of where we think we're at. Why are we where we're at? How do we change it, how do we improve it, how do we do better? And maybe I don't know I think I want to go straight to the floor. So, um, jono you, you had a comment before, so we might just throw that back, if we can. If you want to fire your question at the panel and we'll start there and we'll just. We'll kick this around for a few minutes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I have necessarily a question, more of a statement. I guess you can take it whatever way you want from there, but I think, just again going on to the social media comment that you were making before, paul, I think that it's very easy to play the comparison game and trying to be a perfect father yourself Right, I have three kids two boys, eight and trying to be a perfect father yourself right, I have three kids two boys eight and ten, and a one-year-old daughter and I know for me in my life that being their dad is like it's the best thing. You know, like that's gives me purpose and why. You know why I do the things that I do in life is to for my family and I want to raise good kids, to know themselves and just to be good people in the world, to love God and love their friends and family and love themselves. Even I don't want to teach and instill good, good values into them, but I think I feel so much pressure and like am I being a good role model to them?
Speaker 2:You know, like am I modeling the right behavior in my day-to-day, like they see me working like, so, so much, like I don't want that for their life, for them to be, you know working, for the amount of hours that I have to do or to be striving, you know, for things that may seem unobtainable, you know all the bad things that we have in our own life. I guess you sort of just think, oh, how am I? I'm going to pass that on to my own kids. So, yeah, I don't know what's, I guess own kids. So, yeah, I don't know what's. I guess the thoughts around that comment around how do we model good behaviours to our kids and should we be fearful of passing down the wrong things to our kids? And how do you sort of resolve that in your own mind and thoughts and feelings around that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, your question's a great question and I think you're not dissimilar to, I would imagine, the large majority of dads. I don't know any dads actually, who wake up each day and go. I could care less whether I'm a good dad or not. I think we all want to be and a lot of men do feel that pressure and it's an increasing pressure and I think most of us probably feel somewhat stuck between generations because we had fathering role modelled to us in some way and we've got to role model it to the next lot and that creates a pressure. But I actually want to deflect it to our more established end of the panel just because, in the first instance at least, because you know, doug, you've got three grown children, geoff you've got two, and one who's in his teens. So you two are a bit further along the parenting pathway than we are, so maybe you guys have first stab at this. To respond to Jono's comments and thoughts around that, yeah, I'm hearing it.
Speaker 3:first, absolutely hearing it the the pressure to produce for your family, the pressure to you know um, be a provider. And then the the question of um, am I actually doing a good job? And you know my, my background is my know I mentioned my dad, sort of came out of Germany with an enormous amount of baggage. I grew up in a violent household and then absent father, like at the age of 13, he shot through and I refused to speak to him for another 13 years. So it was 26 years before I was 26 before I actually reconnected with my father. I was 26 before I actually reconnected with my father. In that time I had a void of what it was like to be, you know, any role models on decent fathers. I had a stepfather who was very focused on his kids and felt, you know, disregarded and abandoned. So, coming into my family, I was having a conversation earlier it was chaos. My wife and I had no idea how to bring up kids, no idea how to actually for me, actually how to be a father.
Speaker 3:So the, the, the big thing that that um, the big thing that really landed with me, was actually engaging, and it's not just fathering, I think it's you know, in life, engage in humanity around you, engage in your kids. So, yes, we work. You know I work long hours. I, you know, run businesses, whatever. And there's this awareness of who am I responsible for to engage with? You know, run businesses, whatever.
Speaker 3:And there's this awareness of of who. Who am I responsible for to engage with? You know, and for me it's not just my kids. There's a broader world. There's, there's, there's people who, uh, I have a sense of responsibility too, and and it's a, it's a, it's a rolling engagement of of like, do I know where they're up to? Like, do I know what's happening in their life? Do they know what's happening in my life? Like, am I actually fully transparent? Am I vulnerable? Am I actually honest with what's going on? So, you know, my kids are 33 to 37 now and we've transitioned out of the you know I have to immediately care for them into a different relationship. But there's this not, but there has been this cultivation of I am in their life as a pivotal part of their life, and they actually are looking to that. You know, they're looking for a connection. They're looking for, you know, whatever it is. You know conversation, direction, you know finances still.
Speaker 3:And that is not a responsibility, it's actually a joy of my life. That is the part of you know we were talking about purpose earlier. The purpose of my life is actually to engage. So for you you know you're working long hours, you're putting in the hard yards, you know building a foundation for your family On a day-to-day process. A day-to-day purpose is where are the points of engagement for you? With each of your kids, with your wife, you know, even with your friends, and you know the people in your world cultivating. Where am I engaged and are they actual? You know, honest, real, transparent, vulnerable engagements that will roll in year on year into a relationship. That's how it gets formed and that's, for me, that's fathering. I'll just pause there. How does that sit?
Speaker 1:yeah, good, I like it am I hearing you correctly, doug? When you use the phrase to engage and to be engaged, you're talking about the intentional, deliberate making connection. Stopping for conversation. Are you honing in on that specifically?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so for me. I've got three daughters. You know grew up in a family of mostly boys, so I had to learn how to relate to women. You know, for me, I'm not How's that going?
Speaker 1:How's that going? How's that going?
Speaker 3:you say Well, I'm learning to do what I'm told no, but it's been a fascinating journey for me of how do I do that? And you know, lent on my wife of her coaching me. And you know I distinctly remember conversations with her where she said, if you keep doing that, that you're going to lose your daughters. So I was like, note to self, stop doing that, you know, stop. So so I learned to transition from, you know, the violence that I grew up in, the, the disconnected father. You know my dad had so much baggage coming from where he grew up that he didn't even know how to relate. You know, there was just no conversation.
Speaker 3:So I cultivated things like I'd come home, like I worked for myself. So I'd come home and watch the cartoons with the kids because that was their, you know, when they were younger that was their thing. So we'd watch cartoons together, I'd engage with them, we'd play, we'd mess around, Then I'd go back to work. You know various things like that I was. You know we're talking about sport and whatever. Like I know all the dance moves, I know all the ballet moves.
Speaker 3:Like I purposely met them where they were at as well as you know, ran businesses and was engaged in church and all that sort of stuff and didn't do it perfectly. You know they fell down many, many times but returned to re-engage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brilliant. My wife and I were fortunate enough and obviously, when we're talking about fathering and trying to do our best as fathers, anyone who has the opportunity to parent together has got a massive advantage over. You know, solo parents, whether they be mums or dads, which is an indescribably important and difficult job if you're solo parenting, let alone trying to do it with a partner. But we were fortunate to receive some really wise advice from an older couple when we only had one child, and the advice was for the two of us, my wife and I, to have a conversation around learning how to play to our strengths. And the couple said to us as a dad, I'm going to do certain things better, and so is mum. And it wasn't just stereotypical. You know old fashioned roles, but I used to.
Speaker 1:I used to complain about being the default nominated counsellor when there were emotional issues with our daughter and it used to frustrate me that. Well, why is it just presumed that I've got to do the counselling? And then the thought dawned on me well, actually I'm good at it, it's a strength of mine and it wasn't a strength of my wife's. My wife was very happy doing a lot of the day-to-day, making sure things were organised and I hated that stuff. It used to drive me mad. I'm almost embarrassed to say it, but I would struggle to get through one full day where my wife was working and I had our two-year-old daughter and I used to be counting the clock, thinking how long until her next nap time, how many times can I play with this stupid little toy? Again I realized how much I was lacking there, and so this couple taught us to play to our strengths and so and that really helped us massively, because then it achieved what you're talking about, as we now me as a father and her as a mother we have a, an engaged connection because of the intentional stuff we did that we could do and we didn't worry about the rest of the stuff.
Speaker 1:That was imperfect. You, you know. So for me, you know this I was massive about if I can be at my daughter's netball. I used to mock the living you know what out of netball. I used to say to everyone it's not even a sport, it's a game. And then my daughter went and picked it and I was like great, I became a netball dad because that's what she wanted to do, and dad because that's what she wanted to do, and so I think it tags onto what you're saying, that thing of intentional, deliberate connection. It carves your own pathway into what eventually turns into a story of did I do okay as a dad, you know? Do you guys want to add anything to any of that?
Speaker 2:Can I just ask a follow-up? Yeah, go for it. So this is more for Jeff and Doug, I guess. Oh, maybe Mick as well. You've got older kids. Is there anything that you've got the benefit of hindsight now that your kids are older and adults? Is there something that you would pass on to some of us with younger kids that you wish you would have done better now that you have the benefit of hindsight? Good question, good question.
Speaker 4:Good question. That's an unfair question.
Speaker 2:Because it still hurts.
Speaker 6:Because it still hurts. Can I say something? Yeah, go for it. Just on that question, the thing that they'll remember is you working. All Dad did was work. So don't make work your priority. Yeah, that's the thing, because, like when my kids are 27 and 33, so all they remember is me working all the time. Yes, you'd go out in the street, play with them on occasions or whatever, but my daughter still says now, all you ever did was work. So if you said before you're striving to get to wherever to make a dollar value or whatever, so all you do is work, that's what they're going to get to wherever to make a dollar value or whatever. So all you do is work. That's what they're going to remember If you peel your backside off the office chair or the lounge or whatever, and go.
Speaker 6:We're going to go for a walk because, as an example, I see Andrew and his wife walking with their son or their daughter walking the dog. But the engagement with the child and the parent. You could talk about anything while you're doing it, so you don't have to kick in the footy, you don't have to do anything, you just wander the street. But that's what the child will remember.
Speaker 1:It's that simple. I think they want us Well they're like dogs. They can't say that when they're young because they don't know it. They think they want the things they want from us, but actually they want us yeah, it's like a dog.
Speaker 6:A dog just wants to sit beside you, that's all except for your dog. Your dog did bite me yeah, but you stuck your hand in his mouth I forgive gus.
Speaker 1:I forgive Gus. Yeah Well, Jeff, were you going to add something to?
Speaker 4:it as well. Nat was just going to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go for it. Pass the mic over to Nat.
Speaker 7:Yeah, that reminds me. So we started with twins. I have five daughters.
Speaker 1:You tell your story. He's got five daughters. You win, you win. So I'm going to be a woman expert is an oxymoron, so I'm not gonna say that all women are morons there's no such thing as a woman expert, because uh anyway I'll stop talking about that so what I?
Speaker 7:was going to say is um, we, our eldest, are twins and when they turned 13, we had, we had a sleepover which was one of the worst nights of my life because I, like, I have six women in my house already and then another five or ten came to stay and it was just wow. We, my wife and I, were like what were we thinking? At one point we had one in the bath and that some of these girls are no longer friends with my daughters. But one was doing tiktoks in the bathroom and so we're calling the mum, saying your daughter's here, what's that? So, anyway, the point of the story is that I was amazed how much these girls sat around. So I was inside, I was trying not to listen, but you couldn't help it. But they constantly talked about their dads. There was this dad, this dad that you know dad. Some of them were like, oh, dad, does this this? Oh, that you know dad. Some of them were like, oh, dad, does this this? Oh, my dad never does that. And, and I think us, us older men, um, we have this sort of you know this, this notion that you know the, the the trope is that teenagers don't want to know about their dads or they don't care, but they actually, they actually really care about what their dads think and what their dads do. So that was a real learning curve to me and I just wanted to add to you.
Speaker 7:Jumping back to your first question, when we had our twins, I'll never forget this day. We leaving the hospital. It was like wow, what do we do now? Because they don't come with a manual and I was blessed to have a really great dad. So I was modelled, mostly you. You know good fathering. Like all of us, he's not perfect, but still we were. We were like, wow, this is crazy, man, like we had no idea what we were doing. But one thing we did we did do and I'm really thankful for was we. We did a course, we did a parenting course and it was called growing kids God's way and it was fantastic and um so and shameless promotion here.
Speaker 7:But, um, one of the one of the many things dads for kids does is we run we actually run fathering courses. So, um, there's help out there. You know it's not, it's not like, um, you know, for many of us yet or not, all of us have had a good model. But if you've had a good modeling model to you. Good on you, that's great. So, but maybe maybe you haven't or, like me, you're just muddling your way through. There's help out there. So we, we've got a.
Speaker 7:We've got a course actually starts in a month, it's on zoom so you can join in from anywhere, but there's courses out there. There's great books, but you've really got to. You know, I love it's, paul, isn't it? I love what you said, paul, that kids will really. They they'll listen to you, but even more than that, they're watching you and they're absorbing, especially when they're little, they're like sponges and they're just drawing in, yeah, those things. So it's slightly scary for us dads, but you know because I'm not saying that to make us feel pressure but they're really watching us, everything we do so, yeah, absolutely great, great response.
Speaker 1:And look, I love the heart of Jono's question because, even though the specifics of his question are around fatherhood lessons, the generic nature of that question is there are other people who have walked this path before me. Surely they went through some potholes they could help me to avoid, which, again, that's a huge part of what this is about. It's about are there some collective learnings that can be distributed so that we can actually straighten each other's pathway rather than going here, there and everywhere? So so great question. But others have questions, comments around this general idea. Hugh, coming to you on fatherlessness and related matters, go for it. Regrets, I'm not forgetting the what do we?
Speaker 8:regret. I've got some questions around fatherlessness, particularly teenage boys and girls where there is a father in the house. What would be some of the key things or messages that you want to, or you wanted to, convey to your kids as teenagers that would take them into adulthood from being the father as in you know, in terms of, to a boy you've got what it takes to a girl, that you're beautiful, you're desirable, you're wanted, what, what was so? I'm just giving some examples. What were some of the key messages that you would say to us that we should convey to our, our kids?
Speaker 1:are you talking particularly they've like coming out of teenagehood into adulthood, coming out of teenagehood into adulthood.
Speaker 8:What would be some of those key messages? I mean, it could start from young age, but more as a teenager, as they're starting to sort of gravitate towards their friendship circles and listen to them more and your influence is starting to sort of weigh, you know, lessen a little bit. What would be some of the key messages that you sort of want to convey to them?
Speaker 3:Well, I've got no idea about boys, so it's over to you guys.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, look, it's a good question. It's actually being a dad is a pretty challenging thing, and you know I'm thinking of your question, but also yours, john Owen, and I think you said that your kids are 10, 8 and 1. Is that right? So that's like two years between the eldest two and then a seven-year gap? Well, me, it was four years, and then a seven-year gap for my three boys, and so on. Any given day I could arrive home from work and you know I'd be dealing with a situation for, say, a 16-year-old boy, a 12-year-old boy, and then what's? 12 minus seven.
Speaker 4:Five, a five-year-old boy, you know, calling out from the toilet come and wipe my bottom. You know, Like the entire range of things you know, and I felt completely inadequate, to be honest, and I think that you know. One of the things that I would say about that situation and it probably gets back to the regrets is that often men defer to the wife when it comes to the kids. And that's okay in some things because you know well, in the case of my wife and I, if it was up to me to organise the kids' day it would be a disaster, but they know exactly where they are. You know, my wife, like with my youngest now, because he's the only one at school she knows exactly where he is at any given time and where he needs to be, what clothes he needs to have and all this sort of stuff. I wouldn't have a clue. But I think my regret is that I didn't push in enough for the things that did matter, that dads really should bring, and I look back at certain events in their lives and I do feel regret that sometimes I felt a bit detached from that because I wasn't aware enough, you know, with a breakup with a girlfriend, for example, you know, and in my head. I thought, oh well, you know her loss, you know bad luck, you know, whatever. It wasn't until maybe a year or 18 months after that situation occurred and we were talking I was talking to him that I realised the depth of the hurt, that he and I was clueless to it, totally clueless. And you know, I went away from that conversation thinking, man, what an idiot you know like. Went away from that conversation thinking, man, what an idiot you know like, how could you have missed that? You know, with your son? So, but it all comes down to what Doug was talking about, and that is the engagement. You know like, just you engage into their lives, no matter how old they are, and that's what they want. They want you. They don't want what you can provide for them. They enjoy that. But what they really want, they can't necessarily articulate it, but what they want is you Talking about transitioning from teenagers to adulthood.
Speaker 4:There's a few things that I probably could say about that that I wouldn't want to be on camera You're in a safe space but I think that the boys to men have to have a strong sense of who they are and a strong sense of their values, the things that you've taught them, because the scariest thing is when that transition occurs, when you realise that you no longer control their life.
Speaker 4:That is so scary because all of a sudden you could say you were the master of your kingdom and you could say that door's being locked at 9 o'clock or whatever 9.30, and you're not going out, or that phone it's going to be next to know, next to my bed, not your bed.
Speaker 4:You've had total control, but there comes a point in their life where, if you try to keep that up, you will damage the relationship. And you need to preserve the relationship over everything because, even if they go the wrong way, relationship over everything. Because, even if they go the wrong way, if you, if, if, in that, if, at that moment, you damage the relationship, um, that that's what, that's what hurts them the most. And and here's the thing is that, as as the and this is a very challenging thing for a man as the dad, Even if your son is now an adult, if there's a friction or worse or worse, it's still your responsibility to take the step to heal the relationship, to fix the problem. So you know, sometimes with my older boys, you know if they want to do something and I don't agree with it and something in my head says well, blow you Jack.
Speaker 4:Well, one of you is Jack, but I was just using Jack there as the saying you know, blow you like. You know, I'll wash my hands. That lasts for about 30 seconds, right? And then I think to myself no, no, no, that's not right. I'm the dad, I'm the older one here, I'm the mature one. You know, I need to make the steps here, I need to be with them. That's good In every step of their life. You know, yeah, and that is a massive thing. That is a massive thing. To is a massive thing, to to, to help them to transition to adulthood and letting go. But you never lose the responsibility of being the, the prodigal son who runs to their child no matter what they do. Yeah, and you run to them and you put your arm around them and you unconditionally love them, because that's what lasts, yeah. So I think I went way off the track there, but you know, yeah, but I think you are actually your question.
Speaker 1:Your answer is, from my perspective, listening to you is you're highlighting the point is that the role is you said what are some messages of like, how to transition them, which is a fair question. But I think there's an answer in your question. That is, the responsibility is to do that, to transition them to adulthood. And you know you touched on a couple of messages yourself, hugh. You know and I can hear John Eldredge's reading coming through in your comments around what you say to sons and daughters and all the rest of it. And you know I don't have kids as old as these two gentlemen, but I've got a daughter turning 18 in a couple of weeks and what appears to have worked so far is I've made it my business to have explicit conversations about matters of the heart and things that matter, because I know that this release point is imminent. She already drives. She's about to finish school, she's turning 18.
Speaker 1:As much as I joke with her and I constantly sneak up on her and I say, don't you ever leave me, I know she's going to have to do her own thing, right, but we do have. We have those conversations about her graduation from being dependent on me to what does your life need to look like when you're not solely dependent on me? And? And so something that I do joke about, but I know I'm not joking about. You know we talk about her future spouse and I say things about you know what makes a good man and a good man that you look for?
Speaker 1:And I warn her about things like I say, and not everyone here, not everyone watching, might necessarily agree with this viewpoint, but I say to her you know, if the man you marry puts his hand on you in violence, I will be at your front door. And why? Because I've got anger issues. I do have a bit of anger issues, but that's not the reason. The reason is, at the moment, the covenant to protect her is mine. When she marries, I'm going to hand over that custodial duty. Okay, so I need her to think in terms of my future needs to be arranged in such a way as to allow these values and these messages to play out in my life. And if you're already utilising some of those messages, you know, son, you've got what it takes. And to your daughters, you know you are beautiful as you are. They are the right kind of messages, but I think they are entry points into the rest of the detail of the conversation and talking about that transition moment.
Speaker 4:Yep, I think what Andrew says is right. It's the courage to actually bring up the conversations you know, and avoiding passivity and actually being bold enough to say and I've missed some golden opportunities, I will say that and it's required me then to go and try and manufacture those opportunities again.
Speaker 1:but the boldness to bring it up, the boldness to ask the questions you know, and to be blunt, that's a massive one, I think your point there is a massive one for all dads to, if necessary, climb over. Whatever that hurdle is, whether it's passivity or your own learned behaviours from your own upbringing. And it goes to your other point before it's not our kids' job to initiate with us the conversations that they need us to host with them. That's our responsibility. And, jono, you and I were talking about this a little bit previously.
Speaker 1:I think the quickest way to fail as a dad is to put your focus on the things that don't actually matter, and the things that actually do matter is things like none of us. We don't want to live with the regret of learning later on that our kids say as 40-year-olds oh, I wish my dad or my mum had have had those kinds of conversations with me. You know why didn't they ever talk about that stuff with me? And so there is some form of a hurdle to crawl over and go. I need to do it, I need to talk, and maybe it's as explicit, as you're going to be an adult soon. How do you feel about that? So, rather than trying to preside over the process, actually engage to talk about the process, find out what they're thinking and what they're viewing about it. We've danced a bit Sorry. I feel like we've done the worst job of answering your question out of any of them tonight.
Speaker 8:No, look, that was where I was sort of leaning towards. I guess I was then thinking about other stages of life as well, thinking of my own life. That would have been helpful, I guess. If, say, parents, not just we're intentional about speaking about different stages of life, the changes that happen in your life, absolutely, when this happens, come and speak to us about it. We've got a lot of wisdom, because they've got a lot of wisdom to share, yeah, and it probably would take us to engage them in the conversation rather than they impose themselves on you, and that's part of their own generation was the same thing. They didn't have parents that did that themselves. So I guess a lot talked about intentionality, which takes discipline. I'd argue in terms of being intentional with the conversations and not being passive, as you said, or waiting for your kids to initiate the conversation, because if they don't, then you've got to force the conversation yourself, and sometimes you need to force it when they don't want to speak, but in a way that doesn't blow up in your face Totally.
Speaker 1:And look for those who need to hear it. I'll come to you in a sec for those, if this is useful to any of you guys. We need to give ourselves permission for the fact that it's not wrong to observe our parents' generation and improve. What matters is the heart you do it with, because, without a doubt, we can all look at our own parents and go, oh, they were crap at that. I'll be so much better. And then that's a prideful, spiteful thing If the attitude is different to that and it's like well, I don't want my kids to go through the pain or the questioning that I did. As a result, therefore, I can make it better for them, you know. So one of the things I've had to learn to do. I've had to learn and I chose it to add to that tool belt that we were talking about before around understanding inner life and emotional realities and all the rest of it, because I wasn't taught any of it.
Speaker 1:I grew up in a household and, for obvious reasons, some people get shocked when they hear me any of it. I grew up in a household and, for obvious reasons, some people get shocked when they hear me say these things. I grew up in a house that did not talk about emotional realities ever. I grew up in a house that I don't know exactly what it was like, entirely for my siblings. I know with my brother because I've had the conversation. I did not hear I love you. I don't recall. I'm proud of you once. Now. That doesn't make me, as a 49-year-old, want to get out of Ireland for myself. It used to trouble me a lot, but what it did do for me was that caused struggle in me. I don't want to pass that baton on to my kids.
Speaker 1:And so my wife had the same upbringing, didn't hear that stuff. Now why? Because our parents didn't love us? No, I'm certain they did. They didn't possess the tools in their tool belt to access it, and so we made these choices to say not out of spite, out of the gift we want to give to our kids. We will make ourselves climb over that hurdle and engage with that stuff for their benefit. Climb over that hurdle and engage with that stuff for their benefit.
Speaker 1:So you know you spend 24 hours in our house. You will hear the words my son he could tone it down a bit actually he says love you Dad, because you know you're going from the kitchen to the bedroom and you'll be back in 30 seconds. He does love you. Farewells 800 times a day, which is great, but the point is we've normalized that language because in my upbringing it was not normal. So if that's useful to anyone here those who are watching and listening it's not wrong to look at your own childhood and go. There's a few gaps there. And if you don't do it with spite, it's actually quite a healthy thing, because you give a gift in your own parenting. So for you, you can look at that and go well, what was I not given conversationally as I transitioned out of my own teen years and how can I rectify it? So anyone else got questions. Comments on this subject? Luke over here.
Speaker 3:Sorry.
Speaker 1:Doug, you want to chime in on that while we're?
Speaker 3:passing the mic. The regret thing which ties in with what you're talking about, hugh, is I regret how harsh I was through the years, and not just to my girls. I regret how harsh I was to Angie, my wife, and the impact it actually had on the whole family. And I think in retrospect there's things I'm learning now like you can actually be strong and focused and purposeful and kind. Like you can actually be a gentle man and still be a strong man and still hold your own. And I think you know like advice for you know young ladies growing up into womanhood if for like to actually hold that place where there's no conversation that's off the table. So they like create a place where they can come to you about anything. So you know conversations about you know menstruation, conversations about boyfriends, conversations about sexuality just normalise that and land it in a kind place of you're actually welcome to be part of the conversation.
Speaker 3:Like I had a recent experience with my middle girl and her fiancé, a dear friend of theirs suddenly died. Like literally my daughter came across him. He was gardening in the backyard and he was no longer alive and absolutely shattered their world. So she's 36, you know strong, competent, you know beautiful woman.
Speaker 3:So my role in this whole process was actually to stand close enough to these guys to just hold their hearts while they grieved and to be in that place of kindness of you know where they went through, the you know raging of God and the why and what's the purpose of life, you know and the whole unravelling of the devastation they felt. And my place is not to provide an answer, not to give them direction or to tell them what to do. It's actually just to be there and actually comfort them through that place. And when I think back on that it's like that was actually my role all the way through their lives. But there was times when I missed it. You know where I was just too harsh or too distracted. So for you it's like you know, be there, open to every conversation, and then hold your strength and hold your masculinity with great kindness and great gentleness Beautiful.
Speaker 9:Yeah, please, with the regret thing too, don't allow the fear of regret to cripple the way you father your kids, because you're going to make mistakes, you're not going to get it right, you're going to always make mistakes, it's okay. It's not healthy to accept that being okay. You always want to improve yourself. But one thing that we try to do as well I try to do as a father is I want my children to value me, um, and I've been asked how do you do that? It's not easy, um, but I do my best to value them first and it gets put to the test. We've got three daughters 22, 18, and turning 16 soon. My boy's been the most challenging. He's just turned 14. And we had a bit of a tough year with him last year. I was telling you before, especially at the start of the year, and it tested us, tested the relationship, and through that process I was also seeing does my son actually value what I say? I want him to value me the way I value my dad. Now, my dad hasn't been perfect, my parents haven't been perfect, but I value him. I know I can call him at any moment. He'll be there Right. So when he gets to this age. I want him to value me, and so that's one of the things that we try really, really hard. And you mentioned before about they're a sponge. So while they're young, you have I think the amount of impact you have on your child. Imagine is a graph that goes down and you say that you get to a point where they I'm not there yet, but you get to a point where that's it, they're on their own now, and so imagine the graph is like this, going down. I'm kind of here now. I've got still a lot of impact on his life, but it's going to go away very quick.
Speaker 9:And I had a conversation with him a few months back and I was telling him you can't talk to your mum like that, you can't do this. And he actually said to me and he goes, you do it, uh-oh, yeah. And in that moment I could have said what do you know? You know, shut up, son, do what I say. And I actually said you know what? You're right. I said if you see me like that, I give you authority to tell me, as my son, to say Dad, this is what we're talking about. So it's also about being humble as a dad, that when I make those mistakes and maybe it's helpful for you being in that moment now because I'm younger than these guys to be humble. I said that in the last podcast you did be humble, because if you're humble in yourself, it gives you the room to correct things, to change things, and it also makes your child it made my son kind of go. Oh, I thought that it kind of backfired on him right, and I've seen changing him since.
Speaker 9:He still gets things wrong. So do I, um, but always trying to like get better at it. Yeah, um, because you're not going to get it right all the time. You're really, really not, and so don't allow that to. You know, don't live in a, in a prison in a way, right in fear. Yeah, to get things wrong, you're going to get it wrong.
Speaker 9:yeah, but if your kids value you, you can then have those conversations, like the gentleman is saying yeah um, that's gonna like and I've had that conversation now where you mentioned earlier that my wife has said if you keep doing that, your kids are not going to want to come to you. And it hit me hard. It's like, oh, I don't want that to happen, so I've got to tweak things, I've got to change things, because if I keep being abrasive, it's going to push them away.
Speaker 1:I've got to be soft gentle, knowing that the door's always open for them. And um yeah, that's great.
Speaker 5:My two cents, yeah, brilliant, luke. I think you got the last one, mate. Go for it. It's not really a question, it's more of a comment, more than anything. But, um, speaking about fatherlessness, my dad wasn't really around when I was a kid. He was in now jail for a fair chunk of my life on drugs. My mum put an abo out on him, so he was, and even still to the point now there's minimal contact.
Speaker 5:But I just want to encourage people that for me I'm seeking things now that I didn't realize that I was missing as a child. And then part of that is because I think I'm conscious that I have my own kids. And similar to what you were saying before, andrew, about not stumbling over your parents' faults Right, but there's value in being a dad and, like I said, it's not until I can see now the impact that it's had on me and I'm searching out. I think I'm going on. It's had on me and I'm searching out. I think I'm going on a bit of a journey where I'm searching out not a father figure, because I feel like I'm past that, but almost like a mentor, that similar to what you guys were saying about, say, five or six strong say Christian brothers that you can not be fake about but share life like this is what's going on, and that's not been my experience basically my whole life, because my dad hasn't been around.
Speaker 5:But I just want to honour this group, like, obviously you've tried to create something, andrew, but I think there's more than going on than obviously just this part of group. So I just want to commend you guys for doing a good job, because I definitely think there's a need out there for it. I think there's a lot of kids growing up without dads. Yes, and I was saying earlier it was a little bit of a strange thing, but it was only the other day that sometimes I go to the sauna in the morning over at Mount Endin there and a random guy walked in and there was me and two other guys and the first thing he said was hey guys, I just want to run something by. You did not know this guy from a bar of soap, but he just said and you're in a sauna, sir yeah but he just said look, hey, I just wanted to say like I got
Speaker 5:caught up in a crypto and a friend out of the way of the door so I could just give him a dash. But he just said look, hey, I just wanted to say, like I got caught up in a crypto and a friend of mine kept going and I pulled out and now I feel a bit jealous that he's making good money and this, that and the other. And he paused and he just said oh, I just want to know your advice. Didn't know this guy, but to me that just shows a need for what's actually going on here.
Speaker 5:To me that just shows a need for what's actually going on here, just iron, sharpening iron and asking people's experiences, and I think there's value in just sharpening each other, sharing experiences and just learning and growing, because I don't think it's like other. I think other cultures do it really well where they say it takes a village to raise a child, and I don't think first world countries do that well. They almost see it like a solo. Me and my wife are going to sort this out, but I think, as I'm growing old, I understand that it's not just me and my wife like we're sharing stories now to try and help each other in our own situations and our own kids. And yeah, I just think there's value in that and I just want to appreciate what people shared and what you're trying to achieve in it so good on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really great comment. Thank you for sharing your own story in it too. You made this point around the search and journey you're on at the moment and you used two phrases. You used the phrase mentor and father figure, and I think that's a great place for us to land tonight and I want to simultaneously validate your search plus the lesson that's in it for us all, which is I don't think you outgrow that I have no qualms in being honest with myself as an almost 50 year old.
Speaker 1:If I can locate and identify voices male voices for me in my life, that can be like mentors to me, absolutely. I'm into it, like I hopefully, as you get into your fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh decade, your learning should increase right and your maturity and strength and all the rest of that. I don't want that to preclude me from still needing those figures and those voices, whether you grew up with it or not. I don't think you outgrow that need, and that's a big part of what we're talking about here in this situation is shared learnings, sometimes people ahead of you, sometimes people at the same place on the journey with you, sometimes, who are, you know, decades behind you, who still can provoke your thinking. It's all valuable and we need to prototype it more. And I think we need to normalize that search and not make that a weak thing, but make that a strength and an asset to say, yeah, I'm on the search for mentors in my life. I need voices who can help me go where I'm trying to go. It's such a powerful thing.
Speaker 1:So this subject here of fatherlessness it probably warrants its own long conversation at a future point in time, all of the aspects that are related to that, but we'll probably leave it for there. For those of you who are watching these episodes and listening along on the podcast, if you haven't subscribed to the channel yet, love you to do that. Hit the notification bell, leave a like and, especially if you could leave a comment, if you've been listening to this and listening to the questions the guys have no doubt it provokes some thoughts in your mind about questions you've got as well on the inside. Drop it in the comments below, I will respond to it and we can make it part of future conversations we have here on the channel. Thanks for watching. We'll see in future episodes.
