Andrew Gray Podcast
Dedicated to empowering men (especially middle-aged men) to become everything they were destined for!
Totally focused on strengthening the Inner-Life Health & Sustainability of all men, regardless of age, education, background or status.
For far too long Masculinity has been vilified as some kind of societal scourge, when in fact the complete opposite is the truth. Masculinity was created to protect, provide, strengthen and empower every person, and every aspect of our communities.
This channel exists to play a part in the renaissance of healthy masculinity.
My mission is to reach the men who feel like 'dead men walking' and help to restore their hope, so they are re-calibrated to their purpose and calling in life!
Andrew Gray Podcast
Why Are Our Communities Full Of DEAD MEN Walking?
Why do so many men feel like "dead men walking"? Today's episode delves into the hidden emotional and spiritual battles that men face, often masked by societal expectations of toughness and success. Doug opens the discussion by uncovering the seldom-addressed issue of mental health among men, highlighting the suffocating pressures to continually excel. We navigate through the alarming statistic of male suicide in Australia and our personal experiences, stressing the dire need for moments of peace away from technological distractions. Geoff and I add our voices to the conversation, reflecting on the silent pain and loss of hope many endure, echoing the sentiment that men often live lives of quiet desperation.
Next, we shift our focus to the ceaseless responsibilities that modern men juggle, from career demands to family obligations, leaving scarce room for emotional expression. We tackle the importance of mentorship, where older men guide younger ones through life's turbulent seasons with transparency and vulnerability. By examining the broader societal repercussions, we reveal how men's internal struggles can cause ripple effects within families and communities. Our guest, Peter Lombardo, shares his firsthand experiences in a blue-collar workplace, where he has become a confidant for many employees dealing with emotional burdens, underscoring the value of genuine care and open communication.
Lastly, we confront the impact of social media on modern values and the pressures it imposes across generations. Paul contrasts his family’s pre-social media experiences with today's hyper-connected lifestyle, advocating for simpler, more meaningful interactions that can alleviate some of these stresses. Isaiah, an 18-year-old listener, poses a thought-provoking question about the generational persistence of emotional unavailability among men, sparking a deep discussion on the broader implications of this issue. Our conversation concludes with a call to action for men to embrace honesty, vulnerability, and accountability, aiming for not just self-improvement but also a lasting, positive impact on their families and communities.
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Welcome to our event tonight, guys. So glad you could make it. We want to talk about some of the issues that are facing men in our world today, and we've got Mick, geoff and Doug here helping us and all of you fine gentlemen. We want to talk about some of the big issues.
Speaker 1:I recently mentioned this idea that I've got this episode on the channel called Dead Men Walking, and that's really where I want to start tonight around this idea, this imagery of dead men walking, which, if we don't know, it's a phrase that comes from the American judicial system, where it's not so common anymore, but it used to be very commonplace, where men who were sentenced to death had certain protocols around their life, in the last days and hours of their life, for very serious crimes, and what would take place for those men is they would be confined in a solitary cell. They would be given very strict parameters around what meals they could have, who they could talk to, and in some jails they were cruel enough to put up countdown clocks in their cells so that the men would get a really reinforced message these are the seconds of your life ebbing away. And then the man would be taken from his cell with ankle shackles and handcuffed and he would be walked down the corridor to either an electric chair or lethal injection room and all of the wardens would present in the corridor and as the prisoner would pass each warden they would call out dead man walking. And so this man would be forced to hear this phrase dead men walking by every prison officer as they walked their final steps in their life. And it's very dark, it's very heavy, but I used that imagery and that picture to parlay into the fact that we've got men who are very much alive in our world, not sentenced to a mortal death, but in their soul and in their inner life they feel like dead men walking and it's pressures and it's struggles and it's their history, it's their battles, it's the stuff they're having to deal with, and a lot of them in silence or isolation.
Speaker 1:And so I wanted to make that our start tonight and pick up with you guys. Doug, I might come to you first. Talk to us about that idea of dead men walking. Am I imagining this? Is this what's going on? Is it a generational thing? Is it situational? What do you see in this regard?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I think it's the culture we grew up in. That as men, we're raised to live in an adversarial society, that we're raised to be tough. We're raised to live in an adversarial society. That you know we're raised to be tough, we're raised to. You know, suck it up to go and get a job. To you know, to do the hard yards, to climb the corporate ladder, you know. To you know, make money, make a life for yourself, and that's what's handed to us and not much else.
Speaker 2:You know, for for a lot of us, you know there's there's no education about, um, what our emotional landscape looks like. There's no education about you know what mental health looks like. Uh, we, we go through you know, all the way through school. You know there's no real education. You go all the way through university.
Speaker 2:If you go into university or if you've got an apprenticeship, you know you head into the workforce and there's all these pressures that are around you to perform and to do your job and to you know, to get better, and not much facilitation of how do you unpack this stuff? How do you unpack your own inner workings? How do you actually deal with crisis and deal with fatigue and deal with stress, yes, and I think it's gaining momentum. We have an enormous amount of technology around us which is supposed, but it's and I think it's gaining momentum in. You know, we have an enormous amount of technology around us which is supposed to assist us in the way we live and it just creates this noise. There's just this constant noise. You know, you know, for me, you know I run a business and there's actually a strict discipline that I go through of actually getting the stuff away from me, locking myself away from the media, the phone, the TV, whatever it is, so that I can reset myself.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's an interesting world we live in at the moment yeah, absolutely, I hear the point you're making around so many of our men who perhaps are maybe in a household experience or situation or they're not raised to be ready for what's going on. You know, my background is I spent nearly 25 years in church ministry and pastoring people and leading people and I still encounter it now. Where I talk to men some who are friends, some who I barely know, but you can almost, I think, with some guys you can see it in their eyes and you can hear it coming out of their voice that there is a real struggle going on on the inside and personally I get worried about them. One of the big reasons why I started this focus for the channel is to try to help some guys.
Speaker 1:Some of us here would know that one of the current statistics an Australian statistic is that we are losing between six and eight men per day in Australia to suicide. It's shocking, yeah, I mean it's not something that you can put your own life on pause about, because we still have to live our life, but it should be heavy enough, I think. Jeff, don't you think that it's a real issue? Like guys don't kill themselves if they don't feel like they've run out of hope, right If there's not pain going on on the inside. What's your take on this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it reminds me of a quote that I heard sometime where a guy said that most men live their lives in quiet desperation. Live their lives in quiet desperation and I think that there's so much in that. It's quiet because they don't talk about it much. It's desperation because, you know, when they were kids they were like filled with hope, like all of us were, and you know we played our games and we thought about what we were going to do when we got older. And then we got older and realised that you get a job and then there's somebody telling you what to do and you've got to be here at this time, you've got to leave at this time, and then you get a girlfriend and then you fall in love and get married and then all of a sudden you know your life looks completely different to what you imagined when you were a kid.
Speaker 3:The loss of all of the things that life is set up for us to enjoy, like love and relationships and things like that, are all based in what we would call our heart, like the epicentre of our life. But if your life goes down a pathway where you lose heart, either by just life just chipping away at you, you turn here and you suffer some loss, and you turn this way and you suffer some loss and just it chips away, chips away. And so, whether it's a big sudden thing that causes you to lose heart, or whether it's just this continuous chipping away causes you to lose heart, whatever it is, if you lose heart, you lose your ability to hope. Yes, you lose your ability to love and all of those kind of things that humans need men need yes.
Speaker 3:And I think that's where it lies for men is that if you don't go back and find your heart, then you will, your life will end up in a hopeless pathway.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, the way you phrase that. It's a very powerful picture. Actually. I've been talking to people a lot around this idea that when men run out of hope or they feel hopeless, you know they get to that point where they think are there good enough reasons to get out of bed tomorrow? Or you know that they reach that kind of cul-de-sac in their hope. They do drastic things sometimes, like we just talked about, but that's another great angle on it this idea of they lose heart and they lose their heart and then, as a result, lose the ability to hope. It's a very powerful picture. Mick, I don't know if you see the same sort of thing, or I mean, we've got a room here full of different ages, different backgrounds, different experiences. Are we just a group of blokes in a car garage making up stories and making ourselves feel okay that we can talk about, or is this stuff real? Is this like a serious issue in the inner life of men all around us? What's your take? I think it's very real.
Speaker 6:You mentioned earlier about the dead man walking. The first two words that came to my mouth before you said them was isolation and silence. That came to my mind straight away, I think. The other thing that I've noticed I'm only 41.
Speaker 5:I feel like I'm 50 because of the last five years.
Speaker 6:You know I like to see myself as an older 41,. I guess One thing I've noticed, more so in the last five, six years, is a lack of space in people's lives, right Even in a man's life. I experienced it when I was a bit younger because we were a young family straight away. You know, I was the sole moneymaker, so all the pressure is on my shoulders. And when you go through that and you experience it, you start to see things differently as you get a bit older.
Speaker 6:Yes, so what I notice now in a lot of men is, especially with young families, is it's just go, go, go, go go, and there's no space to talk about this stuff, because the first thing you do in the morning is get up, get ready to go to work. You might have some breakfast, might be able to spend some time with your family, then it's just work, work, work, work. You're in the traffic to get home. You just want to get home, eat dinner. There's no space for any of this conversation in your life. So if all this stuff that does happen, I don't feel there is enough time for men to talk about it. And then there's the other side that Doug said as well of we have to be strong, and why would we talk about it anyway? Because we have to have it all together.
Speaker 6:So I think it's a very real issue. I think what you're doing is amazing, by the way, talking about it, and I really do think we need to also invest a lot of time as older men, talking to the younger generation about the seasons in life. Yes, because life has so many seasons. Yes, and I think sometimes men go through really tough times and you can think that that is how your life is going to be, but sometimes you go through some really tough seasons, right, sometimes you go through good seasons, but it's about having those conversations, that when you are in those moments, you can talk about it. You know you can be transparent, show some vulnerability with people that you trust. Yeah, I definitely think it's a very real thing. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6:That we should be talking about.
Speaker 1:Even just in what the three of you have said there already. I'm sure you guys would agree there's some insightful thoughts there. We need to be, I guess, ventilating these conversations right and, like we said at the start, nobody should take pressure on themselves that they have to have all the answers for all people. But perhaps in cultivating conversation around this stuff, people get the chance to number one, realise it's okay to talk. Number two as you do talk, maybe some insights come into your thinking that help you to make better choices and so forth.
Speaker 1:I want to throw this question to all of you and jump in as you please, but this idea of the dead man walking, I guess one of the things that troubles me is the journey of that individual man himself, of course, but then often we do find that a lot of the men whose experience has become like a dead man walking, a lot of those men oftentimes are the men that we actually would like to call good men. They are husbands, they are dads, they are business owners and business employees and they're community-minded people. They're actually the good men that make the strength of what our societies are. And I guess where my head goes is if this man hits the wall. It is very bad for him and I have a deep compassion for that. But I then start to think how bad is the ripple effect on this man's family, his children, his community?
Speaker 1:Have you guys got some thoughts about that? Do you see that as well? You know, when you see men who are struggling, is that what we're seeing now? The compound impact of men who want to be good men, who are trying to be good men, who are, as you say, mick, working hard to be a good man. Then one day maybe the pressure gets them and we all lose. Is that how you guys see?
Speaker 6:it. Yeah, I think the collateral damage if you want to call it that with everyone around them is huge. I've seen it in people's lives as well, people that we know. You know it can sometimes galvanise the next generation and say I'm not going to be like that Sure, but the worst cases I've seen is it just creates chaos all around them, right, and their children, whether it's their sons or daughters, and people around them. I think it can create a whirlpool of destruction in people's lives. Yes, especially when that person is. You know, I'm grateful my father's, you know he's here. He's not perfect. None of us are. He's been a pillar of strength in our lives, so if something like that was to happen with him, you know the effect it would have on all of us would be huge, and I see that in a lot of people's lives.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that point you're making is I think you're hitting the nail on the head of what I'm trying to get at and what I'm seeing and feeling. Not everyone who watches this channel or happens to come across it will necessarily agree with this viewpoint and I'm okay with that. But it still doesn't change my own position and belief that if we lose the strength in our men, but societally we have got huge amounts to lose. And you use the word chaos right, and I actually think that a lot of the trouble we're seeing in society today stems from what's going to be our next subject point around fatherlessness and family and all that kind of deal. But when we see men dead, men walking who reach the end of the line, they feel like they can't go on.
Speaker 1:You said collateral damage and chaos and I totally agree men, dead, men walking who reach the end of the line, they feel like they can't go on. You said collateral damage and chaos and I, I totally agree. I think the ripple effects are huge for everybody else, because so much that is good stems from a good man, so much that is bad stems from when either a man goes bad or he loses it. What do you, esteemed gentlemen at the end of the panel there. Think about that.
Speaker 3:Well, I guess I would just say that it is very, very hard to be a good man.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:It is a massive challenge that you have to find strength for every day, right, you have to find strength for every day, right. And you know there's a lot of thinking about. You know what's a good man, but the reality is is that if you were to take on all of the responsibility of what we would, you know, imagine to be a good man, that is a huge weight. And I think, and then, as you've been talking about you know like we grow up with this idea that, well, that's just that's my cross to bear, and you know, and we don't talk about it, and you know I've found that you know there are some men who find it quite easy to talk about matters of what I would call matters of the heart, but some men find it very difficult.
Speaker 3:But what I would say is this that I don't think you can find strength to be a good man if you don't have a group of men that you can talk with, who can instantly go to conversations of the heart, so that you don't have to. You know stuff around with. You know, like all of the frilly parts to start with, and then two hours into the conversation, you spend five minutes talking about what's really burning your heart. You can't. This is probably you know. You might have to cut this out, but you can't have those conversations with women because you can't. We're not cutting that out.
Speaker 1:We're not cutting that out.
Speaker 3:Men. We're not. We don't seek after we. Bring strength to women. We don't bring questions to them. Bring strength to women, um, we don't bring questions to them and um and and but. But the strength that we need comes from the community of men around us and that's why, um, you know, in in the group of men that we find to do our life with, we, we should not only be looking for what we can get out of that, but what we can give, and be very, very conscious of monitoring the comments and the wellbeing, and put your mates on the spot and don't give up. Don't be easily persuaded that everything's okay, you know, drill into it and be persistent to try and break through. That comes from a community of good, like-minded men who fundamentally want to be good Yep, want to be good. But sometimes we just stuff around and we either don't have that group or when we get together, we talk about BS and it just doesn't hit the mark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, Great thoughts. Geoff Doug, have you got thoughts on this one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a couple of thoughts. I think you know the whole concept of what a good man is is. You know we have this picture of producing results. You know you're producing results for your family or you're, you know, supporting your kids or you know, and it raises in me the thought of having integrity. You know, you hear about a guy who has integrity and what does that mean?
Speaker 2:The whole thing of integrity is something that's whole and complete, and I think a lot of the issues we have at the moment is that there's not the like. Stuff happens, like life happens, chaos happens. You know, sickness happens. I've been having conversations with a few guys and just, you know, curveballs come and throw you off. In the midst of that, there's a place where you can dwell, where there's this wholeness about you, where you can actually be whole and centred in yourself. In the midst of the chaos, in the midst of work pressures and, you know, sickness and whatever. And I think, like as a culture, as a society, we actually don't take enough time you know you're talking about men talking with each other of actually asking the question of ourselves am I whole, like? Am I emotionally whole? Am I physically whole?
Speaker 1:Why don't?
Speaker 2:we.
Speaker 3:Because we don't want to answer. We don't want to answer. We don't want an answer. We don't want to answer. We don't want an answer. We don't want to answer the question.
Speaker 2:I think we have been trained culturally to look outwards Right. You know like I've got. Am I driving the right car? Am I wearing the right clothes? Do I have a nice house? You know where am I in the food chain of? You know achievement, and that's only a really small part of our life. I think you know a lot of our life happens in the internal spaces. You know talking about the heart before, but I think also in like am I whole enough, do I have capacity for someone else? You know for my wife or my kids, for them to actually lean on who I am? You know, is there, you know, for my wife or my kids for them to actually lean on who I am? Right, you know, are there other guys around me? For sure, but am I actually whole enough to actually be part of a group of men and actually have something to give to them? I think that's a critical question that doesn't get asked all that much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a fascinating insight to contemplate, even for us now, sitting here listening to you talk, to say to ourselves have I asked myself that question Am I whole? How whole am I? If I'm not, why not? What's actually going on internally? Not at all from the perspective of becoming so introspective that we're useless in the world around us, but stopping long enough, often enough, like you're saying, geoff, having that community around us where we can talk. Because I think one of the big things we come to realise is, even if you are sharp enough to ask that right question, you don't solve that in isolation. You actually need the mirroring of other people reflecting back to you in order to try and find the right frequency on those questions. And it's a big deal, you know. It's one of the reasons why you know, in the context of a channel like this, why I'm so passionate about this subject of dead men walking, because I see that so often, scary often where you know, as you put it, doug, sometimes people are so focused on the exterior or, you know, maybe they don't know how to deal with the heart space, or they've got young family pressures, whatever it is, there are actually so many guys getting around us that we work with, that we live nearby, that we have maybe in our extended family who, if we could take a core drill into their inner life. They are in so much pain and don't necessarily know where to even start and take the first step to to reroute that pathway, and so I think and I hope that some of these kind of conversations can play a part. I was very, very encouraged and blessed recently when somebody on this channel responded to that Dead Men Walking episode and said I had prepared myself to commit suicide in the next 48 hours and I randomly came across your episode on this and it was enough to have me reach out to this organisation over here to do something about where I was. Well, brilliant, that is fantastic, but it doesn't have to be that spectacular, it can just be. Oh yeah, I heard those guys chatting and it reminded me I need to re-engage with that again as well.
Speaker 1:I think if we collectively, like you said, the contribution, if we collectively carry that load of, we need to help each other because, let's face it, the encouragement to do this is not going to come from the government, it's not going to come from mainstream media, it probably shouldn't come from our children and our wives. It's going to come from us or it's not going to happen at all, and so we kind of have to get happy under that load of let's help one another talk, but I want to hear from you guys. I'd love to hear if you have a comment on this, particularly around this first subject of dead men walking. What are you seeing? If you have a question for one of the panellists for myself, let's do that and let's get your input. So anyone want to kick us off? This is always going to be the awkward moment. Peter Lombardo, I shouldn't have said that. That's actor known as Peter Lombardo.
Speaker 4:If you want your full name cut out later.
Speaker 1:we can do that. Can you pass that back? That's so that we can hear your voice on the record properly. If you've always wanted to hold a microphone, then this is your moment, Pete.
Speaker 4:Thank you for the moment. I appreciate it. I think it's a great topic, an interesting topic. I see it in the workplace with where I am so I lead teams, have done for a while have a two-shift operation that I look after at the moment and I think watching guys and hearing it feels like a mental health counselling service at times.
Speaker 4:Where you work yeah, with where I work with guys just tears, breakdowns in the office, trying to figure out how to do a job, look after a family, deal with whatever else it is, and it's challenging.
Speaker 4:These guys are confiding in you, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 4:So it's an interesting space to be a manager and a leader and then having guys that you're responsible for come and open up about that and I take it as a privilege.
Speaker 4:But I think the interesting thing for me is there's, unfortunately, a multitude of dead men walking. But the cool thing that I love about this space and what you're creating is, I think, that those dead men walking start to realise that they're not alone, even if they're walking down the street together. Right, and to what you guys have been talking about that whole space where it's about finding a group, finding trusted people. I think that's a key word that you used, jeff, that it's not just some random guy that you bump into at a coffee shop or a bar or whatever it is, but it's trusted people, sure, and multi-generational as well, where you're actually putting in, not just receiving as well. I think is important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just, but yeah, I think it's a very real topic and needs to be more spoken about, because there's a whole lot of people on both sides of that story as well and the ripple effects are big, totally Throughout it.
Speaker 1:I'm curious to ask you a couple of follow-ups. Number one all the guys that are talking to you, are they all subordinates or are some of them peers in the structure of the organisation? And then, secondly, what do you think is at play that's allowing them to come to you?
Speaker 4:Interestingly enough, one of them is my manager. Wow, which is interesting, that is, we've built a relationship like that. The vast majority are definitely subordinates, okay, in that space. Okay, it feels like an ego statement, but I think it's a genuineness and a respect of what they do. Okay, it's very much a blue-collar environment handling steel, dealing with steel, dirty, smelly, noisy. Yeah, it's a fun place to be every day, right? I think just that genuine care and respect and acknowledgement, okay, that they're trying to put in a good day's work, to earn a fair living, to go and support whatever they're doing outside the four walls of our building as well and just availability I make myself available to them as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? And maybe even that word you used, respect. I think a lot of guys don't get that a lot, and so if they get just some simple level respect, you know, what I do here at work is appreciated. I'm wanted here. It can do a lot right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think the respect thing's big for me at work, because the guys some of them open up about the fact they don't get it outside of our four walls yeah, okay, and they feel like they're actually being respected and even trusted to go do their job for a day yeah, okay, and they don't actually have it outside of our four walls in whatever life circumstance they're in.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Good for you. Yeah, really good. Somebody else, isaiah, young Jedi at the front, do it.
Speaker 5:So I had a comment as obviously a younger man I'm an 18-year-old man, I guess you could say that I can't even remember being 18.
Speaker 5:It's that far back, it's that far back Very long time ago.
Speaker 5:Yeah, like I've sort of seen, especially looking from my perspective into, I guess you could say, your guys, your generation, there is a very high prevalence of emotionally like unavailable men, like, if you could put emotional availability on like a spectrum.
Speaker 5:You have like one end, which is more you could say like women, who show their emotions and they're not, you know, they don't hide it, and then on the other end you have sort of males who, you know, hide everything mostly and or if they do show emotions, it's usually anger because of their maybe stemming from emotional immaturity. But I wanted to probe back to what we said, or what you guys said about, um, there being like a ripple effect, uh, from a, from like a male, like a man in their household. I haven't really seen much of like a change from, you know, the older generations to generations like my generation where you still see like young men who are doing the same thing, like they're bottling up things. They're not, you know, talking about things, and so I just wanted to, you know, get your understanding of sort of that idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to bounce to the panel guys with that first, but first let me say I was not that in tune when I was 18. I was not that mature or insightful to ask a question like that when I was 18. Far from it. So good for you. But do you guys want to jump into that first? Yeah, doug, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really insightful. And the comment you made that men who are closed off or emotionally unavailable and the only tool that we've got is anger. It's an extraordinary thing that you've got anger, you've got violence and you've got lust. They're the three tools we've been given to deal with the world that's around us. I think for men like I'm the older generation you know, I'm three times your age you can learn what you need to learn, like even in an environment where you've got an emotionally shut-off father or the men in your world around you are emotionally unavailable. That doesn't preclude you from actually learning what you need to learn.
Speaker 2:The same way that you go to university and you learn whatever you need to learn for your vacation, you can step into, you know, the first port of learning to be aware of hey, I've got feelings. For me it was a process of actually looking up a list of feelings and it's like, oh, I've got anger and violence and look at this, there's 400 different feelings I could have. And actually starting to investigate wow, I actually feel frustrated, I feel devastated, I feel whatever, and actually start to cultivate. This awareness of what is actually happening inside of you Then starts to open up the door of you start to move into an awareness of what's happening in the world around you and you actually, rather than being shut down, there's this opening up, happens and you actually learn to have like an artillery of awareness of different feelings. You start to move into okay, I have this feeling, what's the need that's sitting behind it? Every feeling has a corresponding need, which then has a corresponding request of what actions need to be fulfilled for this feeling to be fulfilled. And it's the same way as going to university or trade school or whatever to become a good tradie. You can actually learn to be a more aware human being.
Speaker 2:So, great awareness, great comment. I think we're stuck as men in the place of. This is what's been handed to me, so I've got to exist in this place. It's like it's not the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great thought, doug, that you can acquire Great insight, great question, great thought around you can acquire these extra things. I think the saying goes something like this that to a man who only possesses a hammer, he will see everything in life as a nail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so, like you say, if all I've got is anger, I've got to smack everything, but you actually can acquire these other skills. To also validate the observation that you made, I probably would agree with you. I think, generationally, you know, if we talk about, I think you guys would probably be the top end of Gen X, would that be right? I don't know all the age brackets of the years.
Speaker 1:I'm sort of middle of Gen X, you're probably just on the top end of Gen Y, and we've got all the different generations here, but from the Gen Xs and even those before us, like the baby boomers, right down to I'm not sure what breed of alien they're breeding these days, the ones that just grunt at you oh, we'll cut that out. No, we're leaving that in um across the generations. I think we're talking about stuff better, in the sense we're making it okay to talk, whereas, you know, when I was your age, I went to public high school, like probably a lot of these guys, there's a lot of stuff that you didn't do at public high school in the late 80s and early 90s. That is really quite okay. Today. You know you would have, and that wasn't good that that happened. That was wrong. I'm just saying we have made some progress.
Speaker 1:I think the opportunity, though, is connectedness in relationship, and generations is where we can do this better. You know that granddads talk to their sons and their grandsons and and brothers talk to each other, and a connectedness which, to your point, geoff, really that's the issue isn't. It is getting, finding and getting in a company of men. It doesn't have to be large. It doesn't have to be brilliant, but there needs to be some trust there and some willingness. Does your comment there apply to Isaiah's question? Do you think?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so. I mean I've always, you know, because like my youngest boy is 13, my eldest is 24, and so it's a fair range and I'm 59. So I came up through a certain sort of you know my 20s and had you know kids, but their life has then kind of kept me engaged with that younger generation. And I don't want to go off topic here but just simply to say that I have seen that it's easier to engage, I find, or to find younger people who are prepared to engage in conversation than it is with people who are older than me, like say in their 70s or whatever, who have got like amazing you know experience and wisdom to share. Yeah, but for whatever reason, you know there's a difficulty there with you know them being sort of emotionally shut off.
Speaker 3:I think the anger thing is right and you know Doug sort of mentioned it as well is right and you know Doug sort of mentioned it as well, and I think that that also stems back to, you know, if there is an underlying anger within a man, that you scratch the surface and the anger is there, then it's typically, you know, not far away from it is this thought I didn't sign up for this. This is not the life that I signed up for. Yeah, you know how did I end up here, you know, and that's that frustration. Yeah, you put a little bit of pressure on a man when he's feeling like that, when he feels like not all of his dreams came true and you know he's had a few setbacks along the way, you apply the blowtorch to that man and you know there can be catastrophic consequences at that point. Yeah, and that's something that we need to be really careful of in our own lives.
Speaker 3:You know, I think it's good I'm not huge on, you know, navel gazing, you know like I think it's good to be aware of your circumstances and your thoughts. Don't get me wrong and your thoughts don't get me wrong but I do think that we need to be thinking about our own life and where we sit in that. And if we do, if something happens in our life and all of a sudden we just blow a fuse, it's a good question to ask once you calm down. Why did that happen? Why did I act like that? What's the underlying reason? Because, hey, I'm generally a pretty easygoing guy and whatever, but that guy just cut me off at the lights and I'm after I could. I won't, but I could tell you some stories with my family in the car where I've just like, just you know, someone has irritated me in the traffic and I've like chased them around three inches off their back bumper and then felt totally that was you wasn't it, you were the driver and then felt totally ashamed of myself, you know.
Speaker 3:But then I think it's good to then. When you have an experience like that, then you go away when the dust settles and you think, why did?
Speaker 1:I act like that. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:What's really going on? Why did I act like that? Yeah, absolutely, what's really going on? What's the real reason why I just could not control myself in that situation? Yeah, and that's a thing I think your question was really talking about.
Speaker 3:I believe this is what it is is history seems to be repeating itself, you know, and I do think that with men, there is lots and lots of mixed signals in our society. Now it's not just as simple as being emotionally aware and emotionally available, because it's a bit like that thing at Luna Park where you've got a hammer and you belt the head and it comes up somewhere else, because as soon as you fix that situation, there are other messages coming at you from our society at the moment about masculinity and things like that, that are just as damaging as the emotional unavailability issue. Right, and so we might have come a long way in that area, but we've still got other things that are messing with our mind, and again it's coming out, like you said, doug, where the anger or violence is our first port of call. Yes, but it's other issues. Now. That's right, absolutely.
Speaker 3:It's a difficult situation. I think we need to be true to our values, and it's another subject. Let's not get onto that. But I think we need to be very, very true to our values and not be swayed by. Be careful who you are allowing to be the commentator in your head, whether it's this famous person, or this YouTuber, or this politician or this sportster. You've got to be very careful about whose voice you're listening to.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, it's a great question. I love that the 18-year-old is getting us provoked in our thinking. Anyone else on that subject, paul, comment or question?
Speaker 7:It's probably more a comment, really, but I think social media has such a massive part to play and I don't think that discriminates on the age of the person, because if you're 18, 19, I mean, I was 19 when we had our first child, wow, and as a 19-year-old back in 93, you didn't have the I wouldn't say, you probably didn't have the pressures that you have now. That's true, you didn't have social media to any extent whatsoever because it basically wasn't around. But now you look at the kids they're just on their phones nonstop. Adults my age, you know, 54 and older are on their phone constantly. Facebook is everyone sees. Oh, look at this happy family. They're out here doing this together, doing that together, but behind closed doors.
Speaker 7:There's something completely different going on, totally, and nobody realises that. And then it plays a part with the anger type thing, because the anger is frustration, because the wife, as an example, is looking at the neighbours next door, going, oh, look what they've got now, look where they are. They're on holidays here, they're having the best time and the husband's thinking, oh shit, you know I've got to earn more money. Sorry, I don't know if I'm most, but I should be earning more money. Why aren't I taking my family on holidays? And that puts the pressure on him totally. Then the wife starts thinking why aren't we? And put putting pressure on the husband how come you're not earning enough money so we can go on holidays and the kids why aren? Why aren't we going on holidays? Like you know, joe blogs down the road and that creates the pressure. And then you know you shouldn't have violence, no matter what. But I think a lot of it's born out of frustration, because the person probably feels that they can't provide for their family, if you like, to that great extent, the smallest holiday is the best holiday can't provide for their family, if you like. To that great extent, yeah, the smallest holiday is the best holiday. You don't have to go overseas.
Speaker 7:And, as an example, when our daughter was 16, we went down the south coast to a place called Tathra and I drove through there many years before and you can't get phone signal, you can't get anything, and our daughter wanted to take a friend and I think, oh shit, you know what are they going to do down here? You can't get phones and kids are on their phone all the time. We were down there for like four days and they had the best time because they didn't have the pressures of the phone Right, you know you didn't have the pressure of the phone because you don't have to be on it, but they choose to be on it, type of thing, and that was the best holiday they had. And so that was at Christmas time. Then they said can we go back down there Easter, because they'd made friends? Right, they actually communicated with people instead of sending text messages and stuff like that.
Speaker 7:So that's how simple it can be. It doesn't have to be a massive family holiday, that's right. But I think people lose the sight of that because people think you know, I've got to have the biggest house, I've got to have the best car, I've got to have the best thing, I've got to go on the best holiday, but you don't have to. No, a weekend away in a caravan is something that kids don't do anymore, and I think the kids that do. They probably seem to be able to socialise a lot better.
Speaker 7:Yeah, but when you look at the kardashians and you look at all the people you know on social media, why can't my life, and even our daughter now she still watches the shows, you know, women of jubai or whatever there is, you know, and there's money and crap everywhere, but the thought has to end oh geez, I'd love to have that. And then that plays on their mind I need to earn more money, I need to earn more money, I need to earn more money, yep. But I think the violence type stuff comes out of frustration because you can't actually achieve, for whatever reason what they have.
Speaker 7:Yes, but they don't realise they're getting paid for all that sort of stuff and whatever, and not a lot of people. I mean, look at the amount of money people are making on podcasts these days. Yeah, not yet. Just to be clear not yet, yeah it's one of those things.
Speaker 7:But I think frustration has a lot to do with it. It's true it's probably a big thing which isn't really a generational thing, because I think kids probably have the frustration because they probably look at other kids oh, look at his shoes, look at where he's going and all that sort of stuff, he or she but then older people have exactly the same thing. That's right, you know.
Speaker 1:I think it's totally valid what you're saying, paul, and there is a bridge to frustration that goes on there because you know our kids these days.
Speaker 1:You know, and perhaps Isaiah's generation, 18-ish and younger they're the first generation to arrive on the planet who don't have a frame of reference for a social media-free world, which you know, it's not just being an old guy when you say I feel sorry for them with the pressures they have, because they can see everybody's life in the palm of their hand.
Speaker 1:You know, and I'm really in that regard, I'm really grateful for my own childhood because, you know, growing up as a kid in the 80s and 90s, we were kicking balls and riding bikes and outside all the time, whereas this new world of social media and smartphones and the technology that goes with it, it does change the dynamic of relationships and how you see yourself and how you see the world and it breeds frustration and comparison and all this kind of stuff. And there's no question in my mind that what you're saying is true. It adds another layer to what is already a very stacked, multi-layer journey through life of pressures, and I think part of the answer there is to talk about it, is to identify it and go. This is a real issue. We can't just roll with it. We actually have to examine. So I take your point absolutely.
Speaker 7:The other thing too is from a father point of view, like we were always at our kids get outside, get outside.
Speaker 7:And they had PlayStation and stuff like that, but they actually weren't interested in playing it. It was a waste of money buying it because we always said go outside and play, go out and do something. But me and my son, as an example, we're always outside, you know, kicking the football or playing cricket with the other kids across the road. You actually don't even see that in the street anymore. No, it's pretty rare At. You actually don't even see that in the street anymore. No, it's pretty rare At all. You know, you never see kids where their dad's out kicking the footy. Where's their dad? Is he inside on his phone? Is he working? I don't know. Yes, why don't they do that anymore? That's right, you know, it's the simplest thing and that time with your kids doing that sort of stuff, that's what helps them along as well. Yeah, um, absolutely, and sort of gets you closer, closer with them, but it's just something you don't see anymore no, that's right, john, you got the last one.
Speaker 1:Then we're going to go to the next subject.
Speaker 8:Yeah, cool, um, just piggybacking off what you were just saying there. I think that, um, the more of a question actually for the panel and yourself is what? What do you think is the real issues that men are facing? Like, we're talking about the comparison, playing the comparison game. You know, obviously, that old saying, comparison is the thief of joy, and I think that's so true, you know.
Speaker 8:Like it for me, um, I run my own business and you know the success of a successful business, the measure of success in a business, is the amount of finances that you can bring in right. Like that is a measure of success. And so, for me, a lot of my life has been like chasing wealth, because you know, I've been trying to chase this success in my business and so I think, like, for me, like, yeah, trying to chase that forever and ever and ever, and it feels like this unobtainable goal. And even when you achieve like a certain level of wealth, you just naturally want the next thing and the next thing.
Speaker 8:And I listen to this podcast called Money Wise and he interviews all these, you know, really wealthy people that have, you know, made it financially, and you know, some of these guys have $100 million, and the same thing with these guys. They're just the fear of losing. It is the thing that they worry about, and they've still got worries and pressures, but it's different, you know, and it's at that different level. But so I guess my question more like for me, a lot of it is around the finances thing in my life and the pressures that I feel. Right, is that a normal thing for all the guys in the room here, right? Or is that just a case that's unique to me, like right? More to comment, like, what do you think is the main pressures that?
Speaker 1:guys are facing. It's a great question. Firstly, my view would be I don't think it's unique to you at all. I think it's common to a lot of guys. The way that I'd like to respond to that is not by coming up with a generalised observation of others. I'll give you my answer Because I think someone said it before.
Speaker 1:You know, there's lots of pressures and they are unique For me. Like I'm turning 50 in January, right, and you know, most people in the room know my history. Most people won't really know I am plagued every day, for good and for bad, by the need to be somebody Not a famous person, a person who matters by their contribution, and I have dug that thing up a thousand times and I split it into little pieces and I go well, that's okay, that's okay. But then there are parts that are still mysterious to me and I have this 24-7 drivenness, pressure that there's this bar of potential that I must reach, but the truth is I couldn't even tell you what it is. Now I'm not trying to use this in my own therapy session, but I'm just giving you an honest answer to your question. I'm driven by that every day and some of it I'm friends with because I go. Well, that's good. It means I'm moving and I'm aiming and I'm trying to achieve stuff, and all that's positive. But for me, I know the truth is it's not just the positive. I know there's something bigger and deeper at work there that I'm not entirely in a positive relationship with, and so for me that's probably the standout pressure that I feel as a man.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm doing okay on several fronts. I know I'm a committed family man. I know that I've done as good a job as I'm capable of doing, probably as a father. I don't really suffer from any mega insecurities about who I am. I've, you know, to Isaiah's question, before I had to work very hard on trying to add to my own tool belt of skills that I had, but still at age 49, I feel like I've made next to no progress on that issue. There's something in me that I know is not entirely healthy that's driving me, telling me you have to reach a certain point of achievement in regards to what you add to the world, and I still haven't been able to get my handles on it. So I think everyone struggles. I think the collection of struggles are unique, but I don't know what you guys want to say to Jono's question what are your thoughts?
Speaker 6:Me personally. My personal experience is finding content in the things that really matter to me. Right, this is just my personal journey. There's probably only one more thing material-wise that I would ever dream of that I haven't done yet in my life.
Speaker 1:Does it rhyme with barari? Yeah, it does.
Speaker 6:Now just checking, yeah, OK. So one thing I always tell people they see all these cars and you know we've got cars and we've got a nice house and all this stuff. But don't be fooled by seeing that stuff and thinking that that's what makes me happy. It brings joy to my life. I enjoy it, but I could sell it all tomorrow if I have to, because I no longer find that's not what drives my content level. So to say what you want to call it my happiness. It used to, and it's a trap because you will never be satisfied, right? I always wanted a Mustang and the Mustang's there, that initial feeling of having a Mustang.
Speaker 1:How long did it last, that feeling?
Speaker 6:It still sometimes lasts, no, but the initial feeling. I remember driving it home because it was a real tough time at the time, but I actually had a couple of tears come out. I can't believe I'm in a Mustang. I've always wanted a Mustang, but the reality is that's not really. That happiness lasts just for a moment.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 6:The things that are more important to me now that I truly find happiness is some of the things you said as well doing my best as a father. Am I constantly doing better? Okay, not about better. Do I want this business to succeed? I would love it to succeed because I'd love to show my kids, you know, put a dream out there, go for it. Yeah, you know, enjoy spending time with my father in the business, my brother and you know, meeting people. I would love that, but it's not going to be the be all and end all for what drives me.
Speaker 6:Sure, be the be all and end all for what drives me, sure, um, and I think the other thing too, is we really you need a? It's healthy happiness, okay, it's healthy happiness with, um, your family, your life and yourself. Yeah, and if you want to be happy in yourself, you need to get real. So I think a lot of the things in society we do talk about things more now. I think the next generation, my son's 14, I think they've got more challenges than ever, to be honest, than what we had, and social media is one of the big things in society and where it's headed, there's more challenges than ever. Society, as well, is talking about things more. So society, as well, is talking about things more.
Speaker 6:But in my opinion, a lot of the organisations I'm sure they all do great work and I listen to the podcast you did with our friend here amazing work but there's also a lot that it just scratches surface. Yeah, it's just surface scratching and I would pose the question how much good work actually comes out of that. So if we want to get real with this, we need to get real with ourselves. Yeah, like that, we need help. Yes, I need help. If I don't have help, forget it, I'll be one of those statistics one day. So I need to get real and honest with myself about this stuff. Yeah, and if I don't, really it's a bit like the person that wants to go um and get healthy and fit and I'm going to go to the gym, but they're still smashing six donuts and, you know, three burgers a week that's why, because I love food, sausage rolls around to you guys.
Speaker 6:Make myself feel better so you've got the intention and I we've got national. You know healthy eating day right. Or you know global, you know we're going to eat vegetable day and all this stuff. It's okay. It creates it's fluff, in my opinion, because we're not getting to the issue. The the issue is, as a human being, as a man, I'm never going to get it right all the time.
Speaker 6:It's very hard to be a good man, like has been spoken, and I need to get real, I need to get vulnerable, I need good people I trust around me and I need to understand that what makes me happy at the end of the day is I could drop dead right now. Okay, I can't take that with me. So my happiness comes from how am I leaving my kids? How am I leaving the next generation? How am I leaving my brothers around me? If I was to drop dead right now, do my brothers go? You know he was a good man. There's some things in him that I see, that I want to be like. So I know it's a bit of a long-winded answer, but that's just my personal journey in it, because if we don't get real as men, really all this is, you know, we need to act on it.
Speaker 1:We need to do something about it. Yeah, totally agree. Look, I want to pivot. I'm going to change my run sheet as we go, because I'm just watching what we're talking about. I want to talk about a different subject and I want to hear from you guys again.
