Andrew Gray Podcast
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Andrew Gray Podcast
ALL MEN Lose In The Comparison Game???
Why do so many men struggle with connection as they age? Join us as Mick reveals his secrets to staying socially active and mentally fulfilled, defying the common fears of isolation. We'll explore how engaging in joyful activities and nurturing relationships outside of the home can transform the aging experience. Listen to Dave's heartfelt journey as he steps out of his introverted shell to build the meaningful friendships that support his mental health and deepen his impact on others.
Struggling to figure out what truly matters in life? We'll share personal stories that challenge the societal pressures of success and materialism. Discover the profound lesson from a child's simple choice—preferring a house filled with love and memories over grandiosity. Together, we confront the comparison trap that often leads to loneliness and missed opportunities for genuine joy and connection.
What happens when we stop comparing ourselves to others and start setting realistic goals? We dive into the damaging effects of financial and personal comparison, reflecting on our experiences and the societal pressures men face to achieve and conquer. Younger men, especially, face unique challenges today with the pervasive influence of social media. We'll break down the cultural complexities of materialism and competition, and consider how generational differences shape these pressures. Tune in for a conversation that promises to reshape how you see your worth and your journey through life.
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For yourselves. What do you think and what do you feel when you look down the road at the prospect of ageing and getting older and the reality that's in front of all of us getting beyond our prime? Who wants to go first on that one? What does that prospect feel like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a word that's been mentioned a few times tonight isolation.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I don't want to be alone.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah. So and I think that our second daughter she won't mind me saying has battled for the last six years with like depression, anxiety, right, and one of the natural things she does is isolates herself. So she'll go upstairs and read and be by herself. We encourage her be with your sisters, be with the family as much as possible, so it's a natural thing and I tried to make a shift a few years ago. And where my son plays his sport, they have the Masters, so they call themselves Masters.
Speaker 1:Yes, what age bracket is the Masters? 35 plus. I was going to say you were 35 plus.
Speaker 3:Anything from 35 up to 75, and they ask me to go along, and it's completely out of my comfort zone. I'm very much to be with who I know and I went along and I've never had so much fun before. So as I get older, I try to throw myself out there more with what I enjoy, sure, and because I don't want to isolate myself, I don't want to be alone. Not just, obviously I want to be my wife, sure, but I understand I need these things in my life. Yes, to be with mates, to be with brothers, and so when I think of myself down the track, I want to make sure I keep doing those things. Yes, I know it's a simple idea, but I think it goes a long way with my personal mental health, my well-being, who I am as a person, what I get out of life.
Speaker 3:You did mention the soul before too. I remember having a conversation with you a few years ago when I started doing track days. That's healthy for me, that's who I am, absolutely, and it not only is it enjoyable and we love it. Yes, I've met so many amazing people through that, shared passions, so I'm excited for what is ahead. Yes, because of those things that I am doing, and I want to do more of that as I get older. So it's about spending time my, my wife, my family, my kids, but also there's things that I take enjoyment out of with people.
Speaker 1:Sure, you know so I hear a few things there, mick, and I love the way you've framed that and I love hearing the fact that you've actually consciously thought of this what does my life look like as I get older? And that idea. It's a very powerful statement to make to yourself to be able to say I don't want to be alone. Yeah, to say it out loud. You know, there's some people who probably that thought would never cross their radar. Others that would, but they would not dare say it. But the fact that you've said it then parlays into I'm going to do something about it, yeah, which is very, very powerful.
Speaker 1:And I'm in a similar boat, I think you know I'm turning 50 next year which, if I'm being perfectly honest, unsettles me. I don't like it. I accept it on a pragmatic level in the sense that it's happening whether I like it or not, but internally I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable with it. I struggled turning 40. It took me a good three months to emotionally cope with. How can I be 40? Who did this to me, you know? And then I'm about to cross into 50 and I know that there's probably going to be a little bit of struggle in accepting that.
Speaker 1:But my lens, looking forward, is very similar. It's this notion of I need to make sure that I stay plugged into recreation that does my soul good, and I need to make sure that I keep on being intentional about the people around me in those activities. I recorded an episode recently to do with helping men with mental health, and one of the things I said was men, especially as they progress through middle age, they have to have activity and connection outside of the home, outside of marriage or partnership, outside of parenting. All those things are hyper-valid and important. We get that, but if you're not establishing connection and recreation outside of those zones, you're probably in a vulnerable state, I think, and so the way you've framed that up is very, very powerful. I think. What about you guys I'm going to come to the young pup last when you look forward down that road, like what do you think about the prospect of the future and getting older, dave?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I just as I get older. I just want to know that my life has made a difference in other people's worlds.
Speaker 2:That's kind of my thing. Yeah, I guess I want to grow older knowing that it's not just all about me and that I'm actually helping other people and making that. You know, the friend thing is a big thing. I know for myself and I guess you know, obviously being a pastor, we're people all the time and not everyone is a close friend and sometimes it's hard to work out who friends are and who aren't over the years. So, you know, wanting to move forward in life, knowing that, hey, I'm being intentional in that space because it would be easy to step away from it. I'm a bit of a recluse and introverted to start with.
Speaker 2:so that lone time I love, I do love that, but like thinking, you know needing to push myself out of that space, actually just listening, now going, you know, I probably need to grow in that space. Yeah, right, um, you know, and you know, to be perfectly honest, it's probably one of the major places at the moment I'm looking at going, yeah, that that's words that I've been trying to get okay about my own life right, because it ebbs and flows.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I'm really good with that stuff and I'm out and I'm about, and then sometimes I'm not. Yes, so I just find because I guess, working in a people industry, you can get peopled out quite easily, absolutely no, really. And then you can find all the excuses in the world to not connect. Yeah, and they can be valid, but the reality is I don't want to get to 60 and be lonely, like you said.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be there. Were you aware of that in fullness before you heard Mick describe it the way he did, or has that helped switch a light on even further?
Speaker 2:I think it's helped put a bit of a light on. I think I was aware of, of, like I've been thinking a lot around this space recently, right Just around you know, developing deep friendships in my world, people who I'm going to go to distance with and you know, and I guess, doing a bit of a litmus test on my life going well, where am I at right now? But I probably hadn't got as deep as thinking of the loneliness side of things. Actually, there's something really valid there. Yes, and I think there's probably a lot of guys that feel that way, I understand, and are lonely even though they're in a crowded space. Yes, and they've got lots of mates around.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is one of the most painful things to experience, right, yeah, to be lonely in a crowd. Yeah, they're not nice. Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting to hear you say that another guy's story wrapped some language around what was actually already processing in you but hadn't really reached full clarity just yet. But maybe even after the conversation tonight it continues to grow in that direction. Yeah, which would be powerful. Doug, how do you feel about getting older?
Speaker 4:Enjoying the conversation. Yeah, very much agree with the connectedness. Yes, I think. Yeah, the whole getting older thing, because my horizon has retirement somewhere and you know getting closer and closer and has retirement somewhere and you know getting closer and closer and I guess a little bit of a shock for me of I'm not that old, am I Right? And then there's this mounting pressure of trying to work out how much is enough. You know, like how long do I work for Right? You know like how long do I work for Right and being fascinated by you know just all the conversations that are around me at the moment of you know the cost of living, like the media is just constantly on the cost of living and how dreadfully hard it is to live, and it is.
Speaker 4:You know, the pressure is on people I'm at the other end of. You know, have I done enough to then stop and then live life the way I want to live it? And really coming to the conclusion like, does it matter, you will land wherever you're going to land. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Does that unsettle you that thought, or are you at home with that? No?
Speaker 4:well, I think both, and also moving towards the liberation of when I think through. You know there's the fundamentals.
Speaker 4:You know You've got to live in a house and you've got to eat food and once they're catered for, whether you've got a mansion or a shack is really irrelevant. I'm moving towards a place of the, rather than consuming my time with the getting and the having enough and the worrying about it, actually just letting go of that and actually stepping into the present. Where's the joy, where's the curiosity, where's the relationship and the connectedness? And I guess, you know, looking around, because I see it all around me, there's guys who have it all and retired and lonely and miserable, right. And there's guys who've got the seat hanging out of their pants, who seem to be having a great life, you know, and have mates and are connected, right. So for me, it's this sifting through of what is actually the issue here, because I don't think the issue is the having enough. I think the issue is, I guess, almost like getting back to the present thing of like what am I doing now that elicits joy and connectedness?
Speaker 4:and relationship Right. Where's the getting back to the ugly conversations, like, am I courageous enough or am I game enough to step into the ugly conversation that hasn't been talked about? So it gets resolved and we can move into a place where there is joy. Yeah, can I add something to that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, please, because you mentioned earlier about the inner 12-year-old and I'll never forget the home we sold a few years ago, a beautiful home in Harrington Grove there, beautiful, big home, busted my backside off to you know, working 70-hour weeks and you know, big, beautiful home. It was going to be our forever home. And I remember we moved in and we were living there for a few months and I asked my boy at the time, it was what, 2016,? So, yeah, he wouldn't have been that old, would have been about seven, maybe younger six, and I said to the kids say, surely this is your favourite house? Yeah, and they go. No, we like the other house better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's a simple thought from a child they like the other house better because that's where they had memories.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know, and I think that perspective on life as well is a great help for all of us. Yes, to remember that. It should bring some clarity to what is enough. Yes, and it's about what you take pleasure out of. Yes, and more than anything, taking pleasure out of those memories with your family, your wife, your friends, those moments you have, because otherwise we can get caught up just chasing, chasing, chasing chasing, chasing, yes, which compounds everything right, yeah, Part of me wanted to. You know what's wrong with your son, are you serious?
Speaker 2:We've got a theatre room in this house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the house can fit in the whole block can fit in this house, you know. So having that inner 12-year-old, like you said earlier, can help with that as we get older as well.
Speaker 4:Absolutely yeah, and the letting go of the social expectation of definitely a big car and a big house A lot of people would be helping that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm currently in that kind of trap at the moment because, just, I think at my age now and it's so funny I have and probably you guys can testament to this but a lot of guys my age at the moment, a lot of my best friends, have like got the house and the car and all that. And one of my co-smates, just you know, bought another house near the golf club and all that and it's all great and we're happy for them. But sometimes you get caught like why am I at that stage? What did I do wrong?
Speaker 5:Comparison, you know, and that's such a like it gets ugly, really ugly, and these, like two of them, were like my groomsmen at my wedding and for that mindset, like hang on, you don't think like that, why are you going like that? And it's just you rewind it a bit and think, oh, I should have done this better, I should have done this better, I should have done this better. Right, I'm not gonna do that later, so I've got to work hard now. I've got to do this, and the distraction can can make you lose focus on what the main point is here right relationships.
Speaker 5:As you know, like one of the most social people you know out there, last two years I've not wanted to hang out with anyone like ever, because I just want to focus on doing what I need to do to get to that next stage, the next milestone, right and um, it's, it's yeah. For me it's been such as like a. For me, personally, it's been like more of a dark place, and then when I've actually been coincidentally hanging out with my friends and once they're gone, like that was really good, I need to do that more often. Yes, I'm like why, what am I which?
Speaker 1:is an interesting thought for you and, as you say, I do know you well, you, you are you know I call Doug hyper aware, you are hyper social, you love being around people, yeah, etc. And so to to be in that space where for a couple of years you haven't been doing that for various reasons and you've got young children, so you know there's, there's a there's a change of season.
Speaker 1:That's fine, but perhaps it gets into the zone of not being true to who you actually are, yeah, and maybe adopting some other stuff, and I want to pick up on that for all of us the comparison trap, yeah for me for, for all, men I mean I think, it's a no-brainer, that it's a big deal right, but maybe talk to us about your own experience. How does it play out in your headspace, in your observations around you? How have you wrestled with it? How are you resolving it? Talk to me.
Speaker 3:I'll go first. It was really bad for me. So I mentioned earlier, we got married, we already had the two amazing daughters, and where we were in life at that point financially was nowhere near where our family members and extended family were at. Okay, and so for me as a man and this is open knowledge of even spoken to a lot of friends and family about it, it's our story For me it was a big trap because I wanted to do all the things that they were doing, all the things I wanted to do, and then I also had to provide for my wife and give her the things that she needed, right.
Speaker 3:And then I also had to provide for my wife and give her the things that she needed Right. And it got to a point where this was probably 10, 12 years ago, maybe a little bit longer, and it got to a point where she goes we need to do this. And I said we can't afford that. And she goes, why? And I said we just can't afford it. And well, we need to do this, this and that, and a lot of it was. And she goes. I want to see everything, and we had a lot of bad debt, and that was all because of me from the comparison, comparing to everyone and forgetting wait a minute, this is where we are at the moment. And when I started to compare and thinking I need to be there. Really, there's no way. It was impossible for me to be there at that point in life, right? And so when we laid it all out, Did you know it at the time?
Speaker 1:Probably deep down looking back, obviously no deep down.
Speaker 3:Yes, but, in denial about it. I can get another credit card, I can get this, I can get that, I can do that, and you know, eventually it became this mountain.
Speaker 1:What drove the denial a bit of shame why can't I?
Speaker 4:you know a bit like what you said.
Speaker 3:Why aren't I there yet? What have I done wrong? I work hard. I'm here because I didn't study. I made choices for myself and this is where I'm at. This is what my job pays at the moment, and so I didn't want to tell my wife she couldn't, because they are. So it meant I had to live a life at that time that was a lot more limited, and so when we did lay it out, we sorted out our budget and we paid off things and we put goals in place and life's a lot different now. Right. But then the comparison thing and it's a learning that I've taken to a lot of close friends and family.
Speaker 3:Now, yes, I said don't ever look at us, because they see us and I've got cars and a house and stuff. We've worked very hard for it. Right, don't look at that and think, why aren't you there? Put your own goals in place for your life, whether you're single, married, whatever it is, and live your life according to where you're at. Yes, because looking over the fence and looking at someone that could be even close to you, it's a big, big trap. Yeah, absolutely, and it's really. You're heading down a path of great challenges, I believe, and it's a trap that can cause a lot of destruction in your world.
Speaker 1:Men struggle with it, don't they? Definitely Because you, I think there's environmental pressure, and we've talked about that. There's societal pressure, and you know we've touched on that as well, but I think there's also there's a normal pressure that's actually innate to our wiring as men. We are wired to achieve, we're wired to conquer, we're wired to take on challenges. It's what defines our manhood really. But then that can get us into trouble when it sort of merges with the comparison trap. Right, dave? What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess for me, like I don't, the area of comparison around what others have got and what I don't have doesn't seem to be a bigger deal for me. Okay, I think I compare myself more to like just people in general. Are they a better person than me, or am I good enough, or you know, like yeah, I guess that's where I kind of fall into that space a little bit more. Yeah, okay, materialistically.
Speaker 1:Internal stuff. Yeah, just the internal stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, am I a good person like that person Right, and you know would. I be somebody that someone would want to be friends with, or you know that kind of those sort of self-doubt questionings and things.
Speaker 1:That's probably for me. That's where it lives. Yeah, fair enough. And look for guys who are watching and listening to this. Right now I think we have a mixture of guys who are like that, where the external stuff sort of catches their eye more and drives them into more of your sort of story. Mick, versus what you're saying, there's still the constancy, isn't there, of the comparison thing and how debilitating it is. Yeah, You're at the young end, like we talked about. I was going to call you young Jedi before, but then I would have had to do an Anakin Skywalker joke.
Speaker 5:Oops, too late, just did it.
Speaker 1:You are at the younger end, You're in your early 30s. Is this a factor for guys your age now? Do you think?
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely think. Um, it's always and I'll play this down, I guess like to the year, 12 year old analogy, but like who's got the bigger toy, who's got the brightest, you know loudest toy, kind of thing. You know what I mean and and you feel some form of accomplishment for like what, like five, ten seconds, and then it's like where's my next goal? Right?
Speaker 5:you know where's that other toy? Yes and um, it's so for growing up I grew up like, even now, very materialistic. All my cousins and, you know, my uncles and all that it was a sign of success, right? So for me it was like I need to have X, Y, Z in order to be successful. Is that a cultural thing?
Speaker 5:Yeah yeah, massively a cultural thing. I think as well, because and highlighting on that is because all my family came from Iran. Like you know, dad came when he was like in his mid-20s, right without my mum and my sister. My mum and my sister had to migrate to Germany for two years to get away from the Iran-Iraq civil war.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so for them it's like he's constantly worked and that's all he knows. And for me, growing up, it's like if you stand still for a split second, you're lazy. So for that it's like that's hard for me and that kind of highlights the thing about right now working on my house. It's like, you know, if I stop for a split second and just enjoy the house, like you know, God forbid I do that because I look lazy and that's an intrinsic thing for me. So, again, so I'll highlight more on the comparative type of thing, it's just, yeah, I need to make sure I set this up so I can continue on my next goal.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 5:And you're rush, rush, rush, and then you're like you're 60. You're like cool, I can enjoy it all now. And then my kids are married. Yeah, the heart of the fact that you're done. Yeah, right, and just like it's all of a sudden.
Speaker 5:So for me it's scary, really scary, because I don't know what the future holds for me. I don't know what kind of father I will be now compared to another five years. And you know, even now, when our kids are like around the same age as all of our friends, even like when their kids are sitting down drawing or whatever, and my kids are in the back of a building running around chasing each other, I'm like why can't you be like them and sit down and eat, go on, and that kind of thing. And it does happen. It always sneaks into my head yes, it always does. And it's difficult Like, do you talk about it? Like? Is it embarrassing to talk about it? Like, or is it normal? Like, hey, we're all competitive as men, it's in our nature kind of thing and it's a thing. But honing that in and you know it can be healthy, but you've got to make sure it doesn't like drive you in another direction.
Speaker 1:I think it's probably not normal to talk about it, but it should be and it needs to be Otherwise about it, but it should be and it needs to be. Otherwise, guys just live in their learned behaviours. Yeah, and really I think when it comes to the comparison trap, that's one of the opportunities that is there for guys is that they can accept that playing that game is a learned behaviour.
Speaker 1:You know I grew up as a kid in the 80s and you know everyone's biased about their own generation, right, but I feel blessed to have been a kid in the 80s because I feel like Gen Xers, my age group. I feel like we had the last real childhood before the world got silly with the internet and social media. We were inoculated against that stuff because we were playing sport and riding bikes. That's what we knew, and so I don't think we had access to what these young guys have now, with seeing the entire world in a split second. Yeah, their hands. They know what everybody's got and what everyone's doing and what they've achieved, and it I think it's a lot of pressure on younger men these days. They're possibly facing an even more uphill battle in that regard.
